Andy

When you are ready, you will know; and remember, most will not except you, so you must keep it a secret.

That’s a cool power. Can you give us a video? Link to it here, or email it to me directly, and I’ll post it for you.

A picture would be fine, too.

Andy

I deal with this problem every day as I directly deal with a product that is considered a food product.  You have to walk a fine line when saying certain things or you walk into the realm of making drug claims.  Most of the issue deals with educating people about their health.  Because people are ignorant of their own health and have never taken the time to learn they fall for every fad diet.  They never develop self discipline and think nothing works after a while. 

A good example is science is learning that most disease are prevented by proper nutrition.  Practically nobody has proper nutrition.  Our product provides the proper nutrition.  It does NOT cure diseases even though proper nutrition prevents most diseases.  Messy isn’t it?  Otherwise you are making a drug claim…
Protection is good in most cases, but it can make explaining a product difficult.

It was an attempt to get you to understand that there are phenomena that can’t be explained by a wholly scientific point of view.

Thanks for clarifying this point.

When I have conversations about the supernatural, there are two big differences in mindset:

1) I generally have a higher requirement for a burden of proof. That is, a “believer” (for lack of a better generic term) tends to accept evidence that I don’t consider legitimate.

2) In order to verify a process is natural or supernatural, I like to test it first to determine what process is at play. I have not yet found a situation that can’t be explained using known physical laws or by human psychology.

That’s where I’m coming from with conversations like this one. When discussing religion or faith, however, I’m not going to argue with you (not much, anyway!)  I can’t tell you how you feel, or even why – but I can tell you about my own experience which may relate. Also, I don’t have a problem with religion, not when it’s a personal religion that doesn’t affect anyone else. Where I have problem are when a religion affects others, or when religious belief increases the incidence of non-critical thought. The latter – non-critical thought – often matches well with religious faith. People of faith often seem to have lower standards of skepticism and higher incidence in supernatural belief, since, well, that’s a core component of their life.

With all that said, I also wanted to say that I’m perfectly willing to state, “I don’t know!” about a particular problem (not the problem described in the parent post in this article – that one I’m pretty sure we could determine some answers if we could just get people to start testing their claims). We can’t know everything. But my opinion is that I don’t see enough evidence to support a supernatural explanantion. And I don’t think it makes any sense to jump to a supernatural explanation, since that’s a less-logical version of “I don’t know”.

If you are not an expert in spiritual things then leave it be.

One side of me really agrees with you here. I fully understand your meaning and where you’re coming from. But there’s another side: am I then allowed to say, “If you are not an expert in technical things then leave it be”?

As I stated above, I don’t really have a problem with such issues, except when they affect others. In this case, I argue, it does.

Skepticism has its place, but if all you do is maintain existing thinking, then no progress will take place

This is not what skepticism does. It’s open to new ideas, given evidence enough to prove those ideas.

To the media’s defense on reporting, I would ask, do we really want to subject everyone to testing their claims

YES. Or if not have the media test everything, at least know that the claimants can prove what they claim. Otherwise we open the door to scams and abuse. What’s wrong with being able to back up what you say? I’m not talking about religious matters, like your personal experience with a holy man. I’m talking about products that make a particular claim, those that can indeed be tested.

Time is the ultimate skeptic and is cruel in judgment to charlatans and deceivers.

On this, I agree completely.

Andy

So, this is a long winded offer to be open and understand that a non-scientific point of view is not without merit.  Besides, breakthroughs are usually discovered when someone from another field comes in and does not know that something is impossible when everyone in that field says it is.
For instance, the natural gas liquefaction experts did not believe a small scale liquefaction plant could be built.  The experts had tried for years some 40 – 5o years ago to build one and could not make it work.  The technical barriers were too great and costly.  Consequently natural gas liquefaction plants take acres to build.  That was until a group of people I am lucky to associate with theorized, designed, and built a small scale liquefaction plant that fits on the bed of a semi truck trailer.  It works, and according to experts, could not be built.  It was faith in self that made it possible and there were plenty of skeptics.  Lesson: you don’t know what you don’t know.  Most breakthroughs depend on some form of faith.
Skepticism has its place, but if all you do is maintain existing thinking, then no progress will take place.  A great example where it has harmed us is Ponz and Fleischman (not sure on spelling).  I examined their theory, it is sound.  The experts in high energy physics however, did not extend them the same courtesy and made public statements designed to discredit them.  Why would they do that?  Over a billion dollars in threatened research dollars is why.  Where is Ponz and Fleischman?  They have a 50K square foot research facility in France.
If you are not an expert in spiritual things then leave it be.  That way you will not alienate a large portion of those who would take part in this fascinating discussion.  Also, back to the idea that I was manipulated, I don’ think it was the case.  I have been to many hypnotist shows and I have never been able to be hypnotised.  There is something in my brain that just won’t allow it, at least in a public setting like that.  Not sure if a therapist could, that would be an interesting experiment!
Much of what we see reported in today’s media is overly credulous.

I would change that statement to: Most of what we see reported in today’s media is wholly fabricated and a perversion of the truth whether it be scientific or a supposed unbiased view of events.  Lets not go down that line of discussion.  That would be productive. :)  To much emotion in me on that one.
To the media’s defense on reporting, I would ask, do we really want to subject everyone to testing their claims as we already know it takes 30 years for new theories to be accepted?  This would allow experts to effectively monopolize innovation and stop progress.  Hmmm, sounds like what we get mad at oil companies for doing…  Time and is the ultimate skeptic and is cruel in judgment to charlatans and deceivers. 

until we can absolutely rule out other physical phenomena out we have to consider it could be a previously unidentified effect or a combination of effects

If the effects you mention are physical (non-supernatural), I agree.

At this point I cannot completely explain machine disruptions with standard electrical theory.

Neither can I, in all cases. However, I’d argue it’s because we don’t have enough evidence. We simply need more information before we can come to a decision one way or another. My problem is that people are saying “we don’t know, therefore it must be supernatural”. I’m not ruling out the supernatural, but I think that moving to that conclusion, when so few facts are known, and so little testing has been done, is jumping the gun.

Back to your earlier questions:

Explain this event with any scientific theory:
I have on two separate occasions felt the Holy Spirit enter my body and give me a sense of peace and love by a blessing from a holy man.  It did not feel like electricity as I know what that feels like.  There is no explanable source of power by physical means.  In addition this same experience has been felt by thousands of participants at every event this holy man holds.

First, you can’t equate electricity to human emotion. They’re not the same thing. Second, the description you give can be described by emotional manipulation of a subject. And I don’t mean that in a bad way, either: I’ve felt similar emotions, though I don’t ascribe it to something outside of my own brain. When I get the right triggers, I behave a certain way. I love my daughter, and when I look at her sleeping – all cute and clearly NOT up to mischief :) – I get a wave of parental love. It’s peaceful, loving, and has also been felt by countless other parents. That’s close to your description above about the Holy Spirit. I felt that way because I love my daughter. I don’t have someone else telling me to love her, telling me I should feel a certain way. No one’s coming up to me and injecting “spiritual electricity” into my head. I love her because of our emotional connection, because I’m her father, because I’ve invested so much effort into her, and am thrilled to see her grow into a beautiful, intelligent person. This is special to me, of course, but these feelings floating in my brain aren’t unique. And they’re powerful. This is what drives the human species, and (to paint in very broad strokes) prevents us all from killing each other.

It is no accident that I am now having this conversation with you now.

What do you mean by this? Did someone ask you to comment here on this article?

Ask yourself these questions:
Do you have trouble accepting any form of authority?

“Any” form of authority? Yes. “Some” authority, I’m okay with. For me (and I assume most people), authority must be earned and respected. There are a lot of authorities in my life (from personal to public) that I respect and defer to.

Did you rebel against your parents?

Yes. That’s part of growing out of childhood and establishing independance as an adult.

Are you suffering from a deep pain in your past either self inflicted or externally inflicted?

Yes. Most anyone who’s lived any amount of time will have suffered. That’s how life works.

If you are honest with yourself and if you answer yes to those questions you are in need to examine what you believe because it isn’t working.

I don’t understand what those questions have to do with the original concept of not accepting a claim (human-created electricity generation) without proper evidence. I’m not being intentionally “obtuse”, I really just don’t see the connection. How do these questions relate to critical thought? Or is this a topic change to something else?

I invite you to really search your soul and see why you attack everyone who holds a different opinion from you.

That statement is incorrect. That’s not what I do.

For what I do, here’s my original purpose in creating Digital Bits Skeptic. The second paragraph applies closely to this discussion:

“Digital Bits Skeptic is about promoting critical thinking and skepticism. This site was created as a response to the frustratingly large amount of credulity and scientific ignorance in today’s society.

A skeptical outlook in life is healthy. At the very least, it prevents you from wasting your time or money. At the most, it can save lives. Much of what we see reported in today’s media is overly credulous. Impressive claims are often accepted as fact, without question. Those that are questioned are often not tested scientifically to prove the claim.”

Andy