A skeptical analysis of “There are no atheists in foxholes”

I liked the intro. it helped me to understand the phrase “there are no atheists in foxholes”, which I had heard many times before. I had thought it meant that atheist don’t sign up for the army, and therefore are unpatriotic. It’s funny that to a Christian that phrase would be obvious “of course they will ask a god for help at the last moment”, but to me, an atheist, the joke was undecipherable–because how far it is form the truth.

I chuckled at the cool bit about the simple answer to the assertion “There are no atheists in foxholes.” — “Yes, there are.”

My ex-military friend said something about atheists in foxholes that parallels another thing you said: “It’s where some of them get their start.”

I would love to see an atheists explain his theorie of Evolution verses the Christian Theory  Of Creation ?
     The Christian theory of Creation presents thousands of logical  and extra-ordinary feats of engeneering in the making of the human Body and all other forms of Life. the design of the enviroment supports Life, so that every element on this earth works in unison to suport the each other. The self healing ability of men, plants and other forms of life on earth, are direct result of creation. The ability of reproduction is just another form of creation within itself.  Do Athiests actually belive that all of this  just happened out of the clear blue, with no one behind the designing of it??? AHHHH  COME ON !!!! Where do they get their resoning?   GOD gave man reasoning, man was the only animal on earth that  he had given reasoning to. I challenge them to give us give us their beliveable explaination with compareable examples.
 
Sherrel D. Stewart
Puyallup, WA.
redpepper76@msn.com

Also, creationism is NOT a theory.

“Theories are constructed to explain, predict, and master phenomena (e.g., inanimate things, events, or behavior of animals). In many instances we are constructing models of reality. A theory makes generalizations about observations and consists of an interrelated, coherent set of ideas and models.”

Being able to explain and predict something is really what a theory is. Gravity is a theory because we can observe the effects of what happens when we drop an apple from our hand, it goes towards the earth, not away. It is a well respected theory because people all over the world can verify the claims of the theory of gravity by dropping an apple and taking note of the results.

Creationism does not fit the description of a theory because it does not predict anything. Creationism is better described as a belief or an idea, not a theory.

“Psychologists call this “projection” (although the term may not be technically right: projection deals with unwanted qualities and most theists would reject the idea of theism being unwanted).”

Ah, but this ‘unwanted qualities’ definition fits perfectly. I am not being facetious when I propose that the subconscious guilt a theist feels and the denial of earthly pleasures is indeed ‘unwanted’ while they tell themselves they are ‘happy’ to give up the pleasures of the flesh. That is completely absurd… they are not ‘happy’ to be denying themselves the earthly pleasures non-theists enjoy. Of coruse, however, if you press a theists about the issue, they will swear they are ‘happy’ to give up the pleasures. This would be easy for them to conceal if it were not for their ‘projection’ of their unwanted feelings onto the non-theist. They wish to project the unwanted feelings of guilt and unwanted self denial onto the atheist.

As for my own experience, I was upside down in an overturned vehicle still traveling 60MPH on it’s roof, glass imploding, screaming of others in the vehicle, and burnt tar spraying my face completely aware I was about to die, and all I thought about was “I hope [my death is] quick” as in imaging slamming into an oncoming truck or barrier. Indeed, I am certain that there are ‘atheists in foxholes’ if I was one. Besides, it doesn’t take a psychologist to figure out that the very worst time to make a well thought out decision is during emotional turmoil. But isn’t it interesting that the most often occurrence when theisms attacks the gullible is during emotional turmoil?

hmm, I’ve never seen it that way Paul. I was a raised as a evangelical christian, and was so until just a year or two ago, and when I was a christian I saw that statement as saying, “Those so called atheists will become christians as soon as they see that might die”

Perhaps you were raised in a completely different environment and see it in an entirely different way?

As an unwavering and unrepentant atheist, I have been met with this statement on many occasions and thought about it in the past in a very similar way to Navin Kumar. (I politely excuse myself when faced with it today). I also have been asked “Who is your Pope? followed by one of the minions of the 3rd Reich).

These queries are simply lazy and trite. When confronted by them I realize that I am not talking to a person who has come up with the question on their own; I am not talking to a person who thinks for themself.

I have jokingly told people that I was saved from a bullet while in the jungles of Viet Nam by the copy of Origin of the Species that I always kep in my breast pocket. Occasionally people believed me.

Anyway, good article.

Tomas,

The difference between the theory of evolution, and the idea of creationism, is that evolution can accurately predict things to come. To have a theory, you need to be able to test that theory. There is no way to test creationism.

From Wikipedia,

“Science is a way of knowing and understanding that differs from other ways in that it is dependant on empirical evidence and testable explanations. Natural causes can be reproduced so that they can be tested by other scientists. Explanations based on purported forces outside nature, such as supernatural intervention, cannot be confirmed or disproved by scientists as these explanations cannot be tested. Stephen Jay Gould considered science and religion to be two compatible, complementary fields, whose authority does not overlap.[99] For these reasons some claims of Creationism cannot be evaluated by science, such as the idea of a divine being as a first cause. Other, more specific claims can and have in many instances been tested and disproved by science. The scientific consensus rejects any attempt to teach creationism as science.”

I know it points to a practical and semantic distinction, but my dad told me this story: He and others were under a heavy attack in WWII and one of the soldiers dropped to his knees and started praying – my dad told him, “Now is not the time to pray, now is the time to shoot.” If that’s true, then perhaps athiests are more likely to survive, and there may actually be more athiests in foxholes than you think.

Brian said:

“In a peacetime environment, it’s easy to push off thoughts of death until we’re older, but in war, it gets you thinking about what might happen when you die.”

Correct. As a former Christian, I had to get over the conditioning that took place over my lifetime to get to where I am now where I don’t even think abotu that stuff when I am in dire situations or even the few times my life was in danger. However, what you are referring to is already documented in comparison studies. Fear, worry, oppression, hard ship… that is what makes us religious… we need to make sense of it, to feel we will one day be delivered from it. The more oppressed a people, the more superstitions they have, or a ‘deliverance’ fantasy, otherwise known as apocalypse. It’s how we cope. It means nothing substantial, as theists often try to make it, when someone resorts to whatever the religion in which they grew up when they fear that their end is near.

“Christianity makes absolutely no sense as long as you are looking only in the confines of this lifetime.”

It doesn’t make sense in any light. Really.

“But conversely, if there is judgment after death, Christianity makes perfect sense.”

No, it doesn’t. At least, by itself…. ANY religious fantasy makes ‘perfect sense’ if it promises to deliver you from the hell you experience while living.

“Looking at all the evil in the world (caused by everyone from the religious to the atheist) and our own inability to live according to God’s rules (the 10 commandments), then our only hope is for God to save us from our inherent sinfulness (which is why God sent his only son, Jesus, to die on a cross).”

Spoken like a true Christian, the one’s I knew and used to be anyway. It’d take too much time to show you what your fallacy is there in the above paragraph, but I will give you as hint: Your premises are flawed, and make widely sweeping assumptions.

“Everything hinges on the question: is there judgment after we die? Unfortunately, there’s no way to know the answer until we die ourselves, and all we can do in the meantime is believe in one answer or the other, live our lives accordingly, and hope that we made the right choice.”

Correct. But keep in mind, there is no way to know if MY God is the right choice and not YOUR God, or the plethora of other gods or goddesses, or even a god or goddess who hasn’t made themselves known, or one who doesn’t care if we acknowledge her or him.. do you see where this goes? No sane god in her or his right mind would expect you to ‘pick’ the right one based on the horridly flawed epistemology of most of the religions out there. In fact, it seems it is more likely he or she would congratulate you for not falling for any of them, and using your critical thinking minds he or she gave you.

Continuing the discussion with Jj…

Brian: “In a peacetime environment, it’s easy to push off thoughts of death until we’re older, but in war, it gets you thinking about what might happen when you die.”

Jj: Correct. As a former Christian, I had to get over the conditioning that took place over my lifetime to get to where I am now where I don’t even think abotu that stuff when I am in dire situations or even the few times my life was in danger. However, what you are referring to is already documented in comparison studies. Fear, worry, oppression, hard ship… that is what makes us religious… we need to make sense of it, to feel we will one day be delivered from it. The more oppressed a people, the more superstitions they have, or a ‘deliverance’ fantasy, otherwise known as apocalypse. It’s how we cope. It means nothing substantial, as theists often try to make it, when someone resorts to whatever the religion in which they grew up when they fear that their end is near.

That wasn’t the point I was trying to make. I’m not focusing on the here-and-now deliverance from a current situation, but that a “foxhole” environment forces us to think about what might exist after death. It’s a fact of life that death will eventually catch up to us, whether it be at a very old age in a nursing home, or in a car accident as a teenager. However, everyday people do not think about their own death, because the chances are very low and who wants to think about that anyway, especially when you’re in the prime of your life.

When you are forced to consider the possibility of your own death, I think it’s a very natural thing to wonder what happens when you die. Somebody is going to be right. Maybe there’s nothing. Maybe it’s Allah instead of the Christian God. But regardless, being in a “foxhole” situation makes us think about that, and come to a conclusion that answers that question (whether it be a religion, some general conception of god(s), or atheism).

Brian: “But conversely, if there is judgment after death, Christianity makes perfect sense.”

Jj: No, it doesn’t. At least, by itself…. ANY religious fantasy makes ‘perfect sense’ if it promises to deliver you from the hell you experience while living.

Christianity is not about delivering you from the “hell” on earth. It’s about delivering you from an eternity in hell after death.

Brian: “Looking at all the evil in the world (caused by everyone from the religious to the atheist) and our own inability to live according to God’s rules (the 10 commandments), then our only hope is for God to save us from our inherent sinfulness (which is why God sent his only son, Jesus, to die on a cross).”

Jj: Spoken like a true Christian, the one’s I knew and used to be anyway. It’d take too much time to show you what your fallacy is there in the above paragraph, but I will give you as hint: Your premises are flawed, and make widely sweeping assumptions.

Aww, thanks. Feel free to explain your point of view and where you’re coming from.

Brian: “Everything hinges on the question: is there judgment after we die? Unfortunately, there’s no way to know the answer until we die ourselves, and all we can do in the meantime is believe in one answer or the other, live our lives accordingly, and hope that we made the right choice.”

Jj: Correct. But keep in mind, there is no way to know if MY God is the right choice and not YOUR God, or the plethora of other gods or goddesses, or even a god or goddess who hasn’t made themselves known, or one who doesn’t care if we acknowledge her or him.. do you see where this goes? No sane god in her or his right mind would expect you to ‘pick’ the right one based on the horridly flawed epistemology of most of the religions out there. In fact, it seems it is more likely he or she would congratulate you for not falling for any of them, and using your critical thinking minds he or she gave you.

YOUR God? I thought you were an atheist. Sorry, couldn’t help it. Yes, I do not think that there is a conclusive way to prove the existence of God (or god, or any combination thereof), but conversely, I do not think that there is a conclusive way to disprove the existence of God either. Reasoning (and yes, there is such a thing as a reasoned faith) will only take us so far – for the rest, that we cannot prove conclusively, must be taken on faith. For some, it’s faith that God does not exist. For others, it’s faith that He does. For the sake of brevity, I’ll stop here.

Since it came up in the previous post, I’m going to try and explain:
Why I am a Christian, and why Christianity makes sense to me. I’m not offering this as an irrefutable proof of Christianity, only an explanation of what makes sense to me, and why it does.

Starting at the basics:
1) There is a god – I believe that a god exists, that created the universe and everything within it. An omnipotent and omniscient god. Where did everything come from? The Big Bang? But how did that happen? What triggered that? And that still doesn’t answer the question where all the matter came from in the first place. Stuff doesn’t just “appear” out of nowhere for no reason. I believe that god is the reason. Also, the sheer statistical impossibility that sheer chance created the universe and life as we know it (statistically impossible as in, winning the lottery a thousand times in a row would be much more likely), makes it far more likely that someone created the universe and either designed it or shaped it to become what it is today.

2) God is not evil – After all, if God were evil, then we’re all pretty much screwed and there is nothing that we can do about it. Why would an evil God grant us some sort of “paradise” or eternal reward, even if we were to worship him? Even if he “promised” rewards for worshiping him and being evil like him, we would be relying on an evil god to keep his word – and why would he do that? He’d be evil, after all. And, let’s face it: not too many people worship an evil god, except maybe Satanists.

3) God is not neutral – If God were neutral (as in, everybody gets into “heaven” regardless of what they’ve done), then he would be condoning a lot of evil that takes place in the world (Imagine bumping into Josef Stalin in the afterlife, never mind he killed 20 million people). That doesn’t sit well with me – I believe that people who do evil should be brought to justice, and must pay for their crimes against others. That’s kind of a common theme across all of humanity. And, in a more pragmatic sense, if I’m wrong in believing in a just and “good” God, and He’s really just neutral, then I really haven’t lost anything in the end.

4) God is “good” – I believe that God does not like it when we do evil actions, or even have evil thoughts. He created us as equals, and He is grieved when he sees us wrong one another. I believe that our conscious reflects that – why humans universally agree that things like rape, murder, adultery, giving false testimony, or stealing someone’s possessions are wrong.

5) God will judge us – If God is just (a “good” God), and He is omnipotent, and omniscient, then He cannot tolerate unpunished evil. If He were to condone it or overlook it, that would not be just (imagine if a judge were to let someone with undeniable evidence of a crime walk free without punishment; it would be wrong, and unjust). Since God knows everything, He can judge us perfectly – He knows our actions, thoughts, motives, more completely and accurately than any human judge or jury could discern. We cannot claim innocence, for we all have a conscious that testifies against us (no matter how much we may try to suppress it or ignore it).

6) God loves us – As parents do for their children, God gives us rules to live by, with the intent to keep us from harming ourselves, and others – not just physically, but emotionally and spiritually. If God did not love us, then why would He care how we act? If God did not love us, then why would he even care about justice? Does anyone think that it would be a bad thing to love one another, to help those in need, or to learn how to forgive others?

7) We have a choice – a choice to be good or evil. God does not force Himself on us, and He does not force us to be good like puppets on a string. Why? Because God loves us, and a loving parent would not control every single moment and action of their child. Could you say that you really love a woman if you forced her, against her will, to love you back? God gives us the freedom to choose, whether to live as He wants us to, or to rebel and go our own way. Whether to believe in Him, or to love Him, or to ignore or reject Him.

8 ) We are not perfect – No matter how good of a person we may try to be, we are not perfect. How long can we go before we end up wronging someone, or hurting someone, choosing despite that voice in the back of our heads, to do something selfish at the expense of others? Even Mother Teresa, for all the good that she did in this world, was not perfect.

9) God’s dilemma – Two of God’s characteristics are in conflict. On the one hand, He cannot let our rebellion go unpunished. We have hurt other people, violating the rules that He has written on our conscious, and He would be unjust to simply “look the other way.” Our punishment is an eternity in Hell, because that is exactly what our actions have asked for. In our rebellion, we set up ourselves as our own god, accountable to no one but ourselves, and in the end, God will grant that wish. He will send us to a place without God – and that place is called Hell. However, God also loves us, and does not want us to be condemned to Hell. What parent would not grieve, if their beloved son was convicted of a crime and sentenced to a lifetime in prison? Yet, despite God loving us and wanting us to be saved, He cannot without being unjust. Which leads to…

10) The way out – God pays the price for us. As I mentioned in (8), we are incapable of “earning” our way into heaven by being good and avoiding evil. It’s part of being human – we aren’t perfect! And that is why God was willing to send His only Son to earth, where Jesus lived a sinless life (because of his divine nature), and died an unjust death (he was killed for blasphemy – claiming to be the Son of God), and willingly took the punishment that God was going to give to us, and put it on Jesus’ back. It’s like a judge, after pronouncing his son guilty of speeding, then steps down and pays the fine out of his own pocket. Justice has been done, but the guilty person does not have to pay himself.

11) Why does evil exist then? – If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then why does He permit evil to take place? Isn’t that proof that God does not exist? No. Even though there are times that the bad guys prosper and the good guys suffer, judgment takes place after we die. If God were to strike us down with a lightning bolt as soon as we did something wrong, then everybody would be dead. God defers judgment so that we have every chance to repent and turn back to good (that is, accepting the gift of our salvation through Christ – like any gift, we can choose to refuse it if we want to).

12) What about the theory of evolution, Darwin, etc? – Honestly, I think this is irrelevant to the most important part of Christianity, which is salvation from our sins. But, personally, I believe that evolution takes place, and even though God could have created the Earth in six 24-hour days, I don’t think He did. I believe God works through a lot of things in nature and science, whether it be evolution, the laws of physics, and so on.

13) What about the unreliability of the Bible? – Actually, the Bible is a lot more reliable (that is, accurately passed down over the centuries) than any other copies of books from 2000+ years ago (such as The Odyssey or Thucydides’ history of the Peloponnesian War, both of which people take for granted as being accurate. Though some translations have been less accurate than others, Biblical scholars who read the Bible in Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew have used that to put together newer translations that are more accurate. And besides, I’m a fan of not sticking to one particular translation, but comparing several, to ensure I’m drawing the right conclusions from the text.

14) Jesus? The Son of God? Give me a break. Yes, it’s kind of a radical thing to claim to be the Son of God. OK, first: Jesus is a historical figure – there is plenty of evidence that proves that there was a person named Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified by the Romans under Pontius Pilate. The real question is whether or not he was the Son of God. If he wasn’t, then he was just some random carpenter who had some followers and ended up getting himself killed because he claimed to be divine, despite knowing full well he would be killed for it. If he wasn’t who he claimed to be, he’d be more than stupid: he’d be crazy.

Yet despite that, and Jesus’ disciples knowing full well if he really was the Son of God, became bold and outspoken in preaching the gospel and spreading Christianity throughout the Roman Empire, refusing to forsake their beliefs despite intense persecution, and the unnatural deaths of 11 of the 12 disciples. People have been willing to die for a cause that they thought to be true, but how could you find so many willing to die for a cause that they knew was false? And what about Saul (Paul), who switched from one of the most outspoken anti-Christians who was arresting and persecuting the Christians throughout the area, into writing a good portion of the New Testament and spreading Christianity throughout Asia Minor, Greece, Italy, and Spain? And if Christian claims of Jesus’ divinity and resurrection were false, then why wasn’t the Jews or the Romans able to squash the movement in its infancy, by bringing forth witnesses and showing Jesus’ dead body?

Finally, there are dozens of prophecies in the Old Testament (written between 400 and 2000 years before Jesus’ birth) which only Jesus fulfilled. Although you may claim that this is using the Bible to support the Bible, this is not a circular argument. Those prophecies are the same ones that appear in the Jewish texts, and as I mentioned before, were written centuries in advance. For instance, the book of Genesis successively narrows down the lineage that He would use to bless the world, eventually singling out the tribe of Judah from the 12 tribes of Israel, and later in 2 Samuel, to descendants from King David. Psalm 22:16-18, written 1000 years before Christ, predicts that the Messiah’s hands and feet would be pierced (and this was hundreds of years before crucifixion became a common method of torture and execution). Zechariah 11:12-13 (written about 500 years before Christ) prophesies that the Messiah will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, which would be thrown into the Jewish Temple (destroyed in 70AD and never rebuilt), to buy the potter’s field (Matthew 27:5-10), which is exactly what Judas did.

In closing
I think it’s perfectly reasonable to believe in God, and specifically, in Christianity. Though reason and evidence alone will not be able to prove beyond any doubt that this is true, I am perfectly comfortable in taking the remaining parts that I cannot see or prove, on faith. I know that not everyone believes what I believe, and that’s perfectly fine – just make sure you’re thinking through what you believe.

Brian: 1) There is a god – I believe that a god exists, that created the universe and everything within it. An omnipotent and omniscient god. Where did everything come from? The Big Bang? But how did that happen? What triggered that? And that still doesn’t answer the question where all the matter came from in the first place.

JJ: Correct. I, too, give a little weight (to the dismay of many of my atheist friends) to the potential of an unmoved mover because of this odd conundrum of what was BEFORE the Big Bang. By the way, this seems to imply you are not a young-earth creationist. That’s refreshing.

Brian: Stuff doesn’t just “appear” out of nowhere for no reason. I believe that god is the reason.

JJ: This is where it breaks down, though. There is no reason to believe in ANY definition of that potential first unmoved mover. If you do, you have to justify it with sound epistemology.

Brian: Also, the sheer statistical impossibility that sheer chance created the universe and life as we know it (statistically impossible as in, winning the lottery a thousand times in a row would be much more likely), makes it far more likely that someone created the universe and either designed it or shaped it to become what it is today.

JJ: It’s important that you understand those statistics before using them to justify your belief in God. It’s not statistically impossible. You are making the argument that ANY after-the-fact random series of numbers is statistically impossible. So, to predict the rolls of die will result in: 142653541264231621543562324543413454243635253425123645325416153
421512431245345(e10) is statistically impossible… yet after the fact, they are not. They are just a random set of results that if predicted, would be amazing, but when recorded after the fact, are quite mundane.

Brain: 2) God is not evil – After all, if God were evil, then we’re all pretty much screwed and there is nothing that we can do about it. Why would an evil God grant us some sort of “paradise” or eternal reward, even if we were to worship him? Even if he “promised” rewards for worshiping him and being evil like him, we would be relying on an evil god to keep his word – and why would he do that? He’d be evil, after all. And, let’s face it: not too many people worship an evil god, except maybe Satanists.

JJ: I am not sure where you are going with this. If there is no god, then there is no ‘evil’ god. Maybe you are referring to the arguments of how an all knowing god could allow the horrid suffering that occurs on earth, and how such an all powerful being would be evil… I’d just say, it highly implies there is no all-knowing loving god. It just can’t be argued that the biblical God exists as described without engaging in a myriad of failings, such as willful ignorance, rationalization in spite of the more likely explanations, and profound intellectual dishonesty.
Brain: 3) God is not neutral – If God were neutral (as in, everybody gets into “heaven” regardless of what they’ve done), then he would be condoning a lot of evil that takes place in the world (Imagine bumping into Josef Stalin in the afterlife, never mind he killed 20 million people). That doesn’t sit well with me – I believe that people who do evil should be brought to justice and must pay for their crimes against others. That’s kind of a common theme across all of humanity.
JJ: Correct! Which is precisely why you like this part of your belief system. It sucks a hell of a lot to think Josef Stalin did not suffer, or any criminal who committed heinous crimes who is alive now and will get by with it until they die might not ever suffer a penalty for it. But, as an atheist, I am completely at peace with the suckiness that it is that some do. That’s a hard thing for even many atheists to accept, but when they are asked about it, will admit it happens. We are drawn to want to believe that will never happen, so god belief fits right in to ‘make sense’ of this really sucky reality.

Brain: And, in a more pragmatic sense, if I’m wrong in believing in a just and “good” God, and He’s really just neutral, then I really haven’t lost anything in the end.

JJ: That sounds very similar to Pascal’s Wager, where the fallacy there is it assumes the nature of God as it’s premise. You may lose out on the awesomeness of being an atheist (it is awesome, by the way, to not believe in any gods) and enjoy what Christianity calls ‘pleasures of the flesh’ (that, consequently, you currently believe you do NOT want, but you don’t want them because you feel they are sinful.. circular) by following a completely fantasy belief system. Imagine, for a moment, that it all is bunk.

Brain: 4) God is “good” – I believe that God does not like it when we do evil actions, or even have evil thoughts. He created us as equals, and He is grieved when he sees us wrong one another. I believe that our conscious reflects that – why humans universally agree that things like rape, murder, adultery, giving false testimony, or stealing someone’s possessions are wrong.

JJ: This assumes that there is no other reason to think why humans have universal ethics. Your argument also doesn’t explain those plethora of humans who DON’T agree on those ethics.

Brain: 5) God will judge us – If God is just (a “good” God), and He is omnipotent, and omniscient, then He cannot tolerate unpunished evil. If He were to condone it or overlook it, that would not be just (imagine if a judge were to let someone with undeniable evidence of a crime walk free without punishment; it would be wrong, and unjust). Since God knows everything, He can judge us perfectly – He knows our actions, thoughts, motives, more completely and accurately than any human judge or jury could discern. We cannot claim innocence, for we all have a conscious that testifies against us (no matter how much we may try to suppress it or ignore it).

JJ: You are getting into ‘beyond’ territory here where you have to assume your premise is true before you can accept this stuff.

Brain: 6) God loves us – As parents do for their children, God gives us rules to live by, with the intent to keep us from harming ourselves, and others – not just physically, but emotionally and spiritually. If God did not love us, then why would He care how we act? If God did not love us, then why would he even care about justice? Does anyone think that it would be a bad thing to love one another, to help those in need, or to learn how to forgive others?

JJ: This ‘parent’ analogy fails spectacularly. I mentioned this in my other reply. if we start comparing the analogy to reality, it starts breaking down REAL fast and then you’ll have to resort to ‘faith’.

Brain: 7) We have a choice – a choice to be good or evil. God does not force Himself on us, and He does not force us to be good like puppets on a string. Why? Because God loves us, and a loving parent would not control every single moment and action of their child. Could you say that you really love a woman if you forced her, against her will, to love you back? God gives us the freedom to choose, whether to live as He wants us to, or to rebel and go our own way. Whether to believe in Him, or to love Him, or to ignore or reject Him.

JJ: It’s at this point I am realizing you are one of those ‘not-well-versed-in-debate’ Christians. You are using the same arguments that have been used for decades that I have seen shot down and shot down myself over and over and over and over again for more than a decade. It’s gets to the point where I just don’t want to go over this even one more time. This “Otherwise we’d be robots’ argument (among a few others you used before and after this one) is the hallmark of a ‘green in the area of debate’ Christian. Other less green Christians who I know many myself and actually hang out with them (gasp!) would counsel you not to use these arguments.

Brian: 14) Jesus? The Son of God? Give me a break. Yes, it’s kind of a radical thing to claim to be the Son of God. OK, first: Jesus is a historical figure – there is plenty of evidence that proves that there was a person named Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified by the Romans under Pontius Pilate. The real question is whether or not he was the Son of God. If he wasn’t, then he was just some random carpenter who had some followers and ended up getting himself killed because he claimed to be divine, despite knowing full well he would be killed for it. If he wasn’t who he claimed to be, he’d be more than stupid: he’d be crazy.

JJ: C.S. Lewis anyone? Again, I can’t spend the time to keep debating these very simple issues on the Internet. In person, yes, but not in the internet.. I’ve done it a thousand times. I am just done doing it through this medium. The complex stuff? Sure, I’ll discuss that on the internet. But these elementary points, I’ve done it enough. Near Columbus, Ohio by chance?

Brain: In closing I think it’s perfectly reasonable to believe in God, and specifically, in Christianity.

JJ: Of course you do.. you have shown with your points that you are using very elementary, debunked, and flawed arguments to believe what you do. Again, my Christian friends abandoned these arguments long ago and use more philosophical reasons to believe, and we have great discussions. But these argument you are using and showcased here for us explain precisely why you think it is perfectly reasonable to believe in God.

Brain: Though reason and evidence alone will not be able to prove beyond any doubt that this is true, I am perfectly comfortable in taking the remaining parts that I cannot see or prove, on faith.

JJ: Just remember what I said about faith, and that it is a FACT that it is a horrid, invalid means of knowing something, learning something, or judging its likelihood.
Brain: I know that not everyone believes what I believe, and that’s perfectly fine – just make sure you’re thinking through what you believe.

JJ: Likewise. Really. I already know you are not thinking yours through by what you posted. That is not a character attack, I mean it with good intentions. I have Christian friends who would agree with me.