I’m happy to see that you and I are of closely related orientations in these areas.  In checking the further links in your original link, I found that Kropotkin and Mutual Aid find reference – but only in passing.

Bob Allen

I kinda thought that you were expressing cuteness and had the metaphor of Dawkins “selfish-gene” in mind with your initial comment.  There are some problems within this area.

When one follows the link that you provide, a major construct that appears near the beginning of the article is – “According to this theory [the “selfish-gene” theory], adaptations are the phenotypic effects through which genes achieve their propagation.”

From my first entry on within this conversation thread, I place emphases on – “There is no such thing as evolution with a purpose – other than adaptation.”

Exploration of a number of links within the link that you provide lead to such constructs and metaphors as sociobiology, genetic altruism and genetic egoism, green beard effect, etc.

Unfortunately, all of these areas tend to lose the historical sense of cooperation and collaboration from the early days of Darwin’s influence upon Western Culture.

Although Anarchist literature is not very popular today, nor has this tradition ever garnered much popularity, near the end of the Nineteen Century, Petr Kropotkin, responding to Thomas Huxley’s essay “The Struggle for Existence in Human Society” (published in The Nineteenth Century, Feb. 1888) – begins to contribute a number of essays to The Nineteenth Century, rebutting Thomas Huxley.  These Kropotkin essays appear from 1890 through 1896 in The Nineteenth Century and later find publication as the book Mutual Aid in 1902.

Kropotkin is quite upset with what Herbert Spencer and Thomas Huxley take from Darwin and then apply as corrupted orientations attributed to Darwin –in dealing with issues within Social Engineering in support of the owners within the ruling classes.

Within the book Mutual Aid, Kropotkin’s first two chapters deal with “Mutual Aid Among Animals”.  He then goes on to investigate “Mutual Aid Among Savages”, “Mutual Aid Among the Barbarians”, “Mutual Aid in the Medieval City”, and concludes with two chapters on “Mutual Aid Amongst Ourselves”. 

My copy of Kropotkin’s Mutual Aid also contains twelve appendix entries of some additional Kropotkin notes on the swarms of butterflies, dragon flies, etc; ants; nesting associations; sociability of animals; checks to over-multiplication; adaptations to avoid competition; the origin of the family; destruction of private property on the grave; the “undivided family”; the origin of guilds; the market and the medieval city; and mutual-aid arrangements in the villages of Netherlands at the present day.  My copy of Kropotkin’s Mutual Aid also contains Thomas Huxley’s “The Struggle for Existence in Human Society”.

Thus Chris, I find is much easier to deal with my initial orientation – “There is no such thing as evolution with a purpose – other than adaptation.”

Bob Allen

Yep, you’ve identified why some of the ads are bad. There is a filtering thing I can do to get rid of them, but it’s a hassle to use, takes time, and is pretty limited. So I don’t use it much. I’d just as soon get rid of the ads.

So please spread the word. The more people sign up, the sooner the ads will disappear.

Andy

Thanks for your articles, very interesting thoughts on a wide range of stuff. I like that your interests cover such a wide spectrum, that you like multi-tasking and that you’re a good communicator.

I came across this site while searching for original versions of Fairy Tales using a search for Bettelheim then strayed over to your excellent Digital Bits site (I’m in IT too) then checked out what else you wrote back on this site.

I can see why you want funds to rid the site of ads, because for me the two Google ads linked at the top of this page were:

“Is there Really a God?
Does He exist? How can you know? What Is Life’s Meaning and Purpose?”
(linked to a webpage of the Uniting Church in Australia)

and…

“Learn to use The Secret
to create anything you want in life from the stars of The Secret. Free!”

This illustrates (for me) that life’s very much about pondering opposites, fitting them into a bigger (personal) picture and making choices.

Anyhow, thanks and best wishes. I’m sure to check back from time to time…
Joe

As an assertive Atheist, when I indicate that there is no purpose in evolution (other than adaptation), I am speaking of several issues. One large issue is that of removing any hint or flavor of teleology – the doctrine that final causes exist and that there is a design or purpose in nature. Theists, by definition, wallow in the murky muck of teleology – and like pigs wallowing in other murky muck – they love it.

Another issue is that of Entropy. By definition, organic matter has less Entropy than does inorganic matter. Moreover, organic matter is what Darwinian evolution is all about. However, Darwin had more than enough on his plate – in his day and age – than being able, or interested, in dealing with the issue of decreasing Entropy between inorganic matter and organic matter. Theists traditionally have also shied away from issues of Entropy in general and the issue of decreasing Entropy between inorganic matter and organic matter in particular. Theists, almost by definition, tend to assert a “Devine Something or Another” as being the energy source for the decreased Entropy from inorganic matter to organic matter.

Assertive Atheists on the other hand, by definition, look to nature, in the broadest sense of the word, as providing the energy source for this decreased Entropy from inorganic to organic matter.

Nonetheless, there is a continuum, in the process of decreasing Entropy between inorganic matter and organic matter. And of far greater significance, this continuum in the process of decreasing Entropy continues “up the chain”, so to speak, in the evolutionary process from “simple” organic form to “more complex” organic form. There is no purpose in this continuum of decreasing Entropy “up the chain” – only increased availability and consumption of Energy. This increased availability and consumption of Energy is the base from which Darwinian evolution derives – but without any notion whatsoever of purpose or drive.

I believe that folk coming in to this conversation about “purpose” in evolution will not detract from your purpose Andy, of showing great respect for deò’s Shadow.

Now for something a tad different. I trust Andy that you noticed that I did not quibble with you over your usage of the construct of an Atheist spirit and/or and Atheist Soul. I strongly, as an assertive Atheist, believe that I have a live and thriving Atheist Spirit within my Atheist Soul. However, this is for another conversation, at another time and place.

Thanks again Andy for your original piece on deò’s Shadow.

Bob Allen

There is no such thing as evolution with a purpose – other than adaptation.

Really? Adaptation for the sake of adaptation? I’d argue that evolution itself has a definite purpose – that of making something more likely to survive and reproduce (through the process of adaptation). Like a crystal lattice, we see an unusual amount of structure in a natural process.

However, many Theists could interpret the symbolic reference as an acknowledgement in support of their particular brand of Theism. I believe that your mixing of metaphors, so to speak, undermines a clear orientation within an Epistemology of Atheism.

Agreed. And this confusion was partially my intent. The phrase was tongue-in-cheek, and was not intended to be taken seriously. Note that just before that phrase, I also used “Goodbye, deò’s Shadow, we sing to your spirit”. Apart from the snazzy John Denver reference, I used this to allude to my writing a eulogy for a spiritually-focused podcast. In summary: If somebody decided to quote this and say, “SEE, that Kaiser guy really DOES believe in God! He proves it right HERE!” …then I’d say that person needs to get better reading comprehension. :)

Andy