Before you resort to ad hominem attacks, read some of the research:
http://www.chetday.com/vaccinationmyths.htm
Google “dangers of vaccines” or something along those lines for more information.

I have no problems with those that disagree with me, but don’t resort to the use of fallacy. There’s enough of that going on in the world already. If my facts are wrong, refute them; if my reasoning, disprove me. But hear both sides before you pass judgment.

We could debate how much science does or does not validate vaccines all day, as we obviously disagree on this issue. My point is that I shouldn’t be forced to do it your way because the facts have persuaded us in different ways.

Concerning my “society” statement, yes, there is much more to objective morality than is contained in that statement. It is a self-evident truth that no one has the right to harm anyone else. But acting as if “society knows best” is ludicrous. “Society” is not an entity; it is simply a group of individuals.

I agree with laws, so long as the laws do not infringe upon our natural individual rights.

I laughed when I read your response about vaccines because I knew you had no idea you were talking to someone that is against vaccines.:-)

And my trust no one includes oneself. I try to look at all the sides of a debate before I make a decision. It’s the reason I’m not a Christian anymore. After much study and debate, I decided the facts didn’t support my religion.

Anyway, I love the thrill of arguing, but, as you said, this isn’t the place. Maybe one of these days, I’ll be able to stop chasing kids and write some articles about these topics.:-)

I definitely disagree on principal with laws mandating seatbelts for adults, as I don’t believe that any government has a right to, “force” me to protect my own safety. I personally will not even drive around the block without fastening my safety belt, but I do not presume the right to tell anyone else they must do the same. I’m still somewhat torn on the issue of mandating seatbelts for children, however – a small child can’t make that decision for themselves, and while I agree that children to some extent do necessarily suffer from the poor decisions of their parents, I’m not sure where that line should be drawn (should parents be prosecuted for feeding their kids too much junk food, for instance?). I have known parents who probably would have not buckled their children into seatbelts had it not been to avoid legal repercussions, though. So, given that the nature of seatbelt protection is from immediate and potentially devastating harm (whereas a childhood of junk food may or may not have severe health ramifications for a child over time), my inclination is that seatbelt laws for children should indeed be mandated.

Despite my strong feelings and researched conclusions on the topic, I’ll avoid the vaccine debate here – a topic for a whole other article & discussion. :)

“Such [conspiracy] convictions depend on what he calls ’selective skepticism.’ Conspiracy believers are doubtful about information from the government or other sources they consider suspect. But, without criticism, believers accept any source that supports their preconceived views, he says.”

This statement seems to assume that skeptic = conspiracy theorist. I am a skeptic, but not a conspiracy theorist. I don’t look for malintent lurking behind every corner. And further, a true skeptic is willing to evaluate and adapt their OWN views when evidence contradicts them. Anyone who says they trust no one, but believes their own views are infallible, is promoting a contradiction. For me, trusting no one doesn’t mean that I think everyone means me harm, it means that I recognize that every human is capable of error, and thus I take nothing at face value.

Thanks for the additional information. And on your last comment about the perception of seatbelts leading to safer driving: I’m with you. Whether you agree with the parent article or not, being more aware of your environment and imagining “what if” is definitely a prod to safer driving habits.

I wish I had that kind of sense when I was younger. I did a lot of stupid stuff. :)

Andy

As for vaccines, I’m in the anti-vaccination crowd:-) There is a lot of science that demonstrates the dangers of vaccines.

…and far more science demonstrates the dangers of not vaccinating. Your statements indicate I haven’t done my own research. Don’t assume that’s the case. :)

Based on your response, I’d rather not debate this issue. It belongs in a bigger forum – perhaps as a future article by one of us regulars? For people like us, I don’t think this is the type of issue where one can change another’s mind without massive effort, possibly requiring a lightning strike to the head. :) However, I did want to answer this point which also relates to the original article:

Where does the collection of indiviuals known as “society” get the right to tell me that the verdict of my mind is inferior?

Beware: a person could use that statement to justify anything, no matter how good, noble, horrible or evil.

To answer the question, society gets that right when:

1) You are a part of that society
2) Your decisions could harm others

This is my philosophy and understanding of the system. It may not be yours. While I don’t agree with every law, I still try to follow them because that’s one reason I’m allowed to live here. The social and legal contracts state that “if you live in this house, you abide by the house rules!” (Things do, of course, get tons more complex when our kids’ health is at stake.)

Also, I apologize for inadverdantly calling you a “stupid or misinformed” parent. I didn’t mean you. Whether or not I agree with you, you’ve obviously put thought into your decision, and I respect that.

Andy

“Such [conspiracy] convictions depend on what he calls ‘selective skepticism.’ Conspiracy believers are doubtful about information from the government or other sources they consider suspect. But, without criticism, believers accept any source that supports their preconceived views, he says.
‘Arguments advanced by conspiracy theorists tell you more about the believer than about the event”…

Single cases are anecdotal and/or statistically insignificant. I can tell a story, too. My mother, as a student nurse, spent time working in a pediatric unit dedicated to one type of case: Children who had been severely and permanently brain damaged by measles.

Every day we live with the verdict of our so-called society and every moment of every day we tell people that their judgement is inferior. When there is no harm to others, then this judgement is (or should be) suspended. I, however, have infant who, until she could receive certain vaccines, was susceptible to contracting those diseases from others.

On a different note, after reading this article I’ve found myself driving and imagining that my kids weren’t buckled up (they are of course). When I do this I find myself driving more cautiously and conservatively. Thanks for making me a safer driver!

Ah, two sides to every story. I think we all have to overcome the handicap of our parents. The current laws don’t keep people from leaving their kids unbuckled. Laws don’t change people’s behavior, only people do. Given our current governmental structure, other options, like New Hampshire’s, where only those under 18 have to wear seatbelts, are better than a blanket mandate.

As for vaccines, I’m in the anti-vaccination crowd:-) There is a lot of science that demonstrates the dangers of vaccines. My wife had a bad reaction to a vaccine as a child. Much of the research we read came from doctors that are opposed to vaccinations because they have directly observed the dangers; Congressman Ron Paul, who is an M.D., has even spoken out against forced vaccinations. I have 4 kids and none of them have been vaccinated allopathically. A different set of facts persuaded me of the dangers of vaccines, than those facts that persuaded you of their validity. Where does the collection of individuals known as “society” get the right to tell me that the verdict of my mind is inferior?

Skeptics should be skeptical of ALL claims, until they have seen the facts behind them. Politicians and Doctors (especially politicians) are only human. It is dangerous to believe your doctor no matter what. Would you believe a PhD. in some other subject no matter what, or would you check out their facts to verify for yourself?

Trust no one… :-)

I agree with your statement but disagree with your conclusion.

Yes, I believe the government has no right to protect me from myself. However, I believe it does have the right to mandate my behavior if I’m putting others at risk. I disagree with your statement of “It hurts no one but you.”

I have a 4-year-old daughter. She’s not in a position to know whether or not she needs a seatbelt. But if I *don’t* put it on her, I’m the one responsible for her increased chance of injury or death – my choice of seatbelts or no seatbelts can hurt others besides me.

I think in terms of child protection, laws like seatbelts – where harm can be done to you by others – should indeed be mandated. At least to a certain age. Adults should know better. Let them control their own lives. Children, though, don’t yet have that advantage. The law should protect them against accidents and stupid parents.

This same argument could also be made for mandatory vaccinations: make sure the kids are at least given a chance, regardless of how stupid or misinformed the parents are. I’m sure that idea would go over well with the USA’s anti-vaccination crowd. :)

Andy